AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to David Gibbs with some really groundbreaking information about the beginning of the Soviets going into Afghanistan, that led to a very brutal war with heavy casualties on both sides. David Gibbs, associate professor of political science at University of Arizona, talking about revelations that came out of an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski that got no attention here in the United States, that was done in a French newspaper that David Gibbs and Bill Blum translated.
Now, in this interview, going back to that, you not only talk about Brzezinski responding to the question, “Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action.” That was the U.S. supporting the mujahideen before the Soviets had moved in. “But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into the war and looked for a way to provoke it?” And Brzezinski said, “It wasn’t quite like that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.”
And then the question: “When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against secret U.S. involvement in Afghanistan , nobody believed them. However, there was an element of truth in this. You don’t regret any of this today?” And just repeating what you were saying before, Brzezinski says, “Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap, and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, essentially, [saying]: 'We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war.'”
And then the question: “And neither do you regret having supported Islamic fundamentalism, which has given arms and advice to future terrorists?” Brzezinski responds, “What is more important in world history? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet Empire? Some agitated Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?”
The question then is: “'Some agitated Muslims'? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today…” And Brzezinski responds, “Nonsense! It is said that the West has a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid: There isn’t a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner, without demagoguery or emotionalism. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers.” And it goes on from there.
But again, that quote: “What is more important in world history? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet Empire? Some agitated Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?” That’s Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser to Jimmy Carter. And also, talk more about his significance. We see him on television still all the time.
DAVID GIBBS: Well, he’s regarded as something of a — of a kind of elder statesman. He’s maybe second to Kissinger in terms of his popularity as a commentator and so on. And he’s also seen as somebody who played a key role in ending the Cold War. This is, I think, the key point. It was always assumed that in taking these measures, such as Afghanistan, this was — there would be no consequences for the United States. This was cost-free from the standpoint of the United States. You can see that in this interview: It was an overwhelming and sensational victory. We paid no significant price so far as Brzezinski was concerned. I suppose what can one say to that is, I wonder what would Brzezinski say now if he were asked about this after September 11th, if he would be so dismissive of the significance of what he called some agitated Muslims, or if he would acknowledge there might have been an extremely high price the U.S. had to pay for those decisions he described.
What’s disappointing about this is there has been no effort of follow-up by journalists on this issue. It would be important, I think, to establish some personal accountability here and to question Brzezinski on television about these quotes and ask: What does he think of these of these quotes now? And is he still so proud of his role in helping to make the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan more likely over 20 years ago?
