Archief - Opnieuw poging tot terreur verijdeld

Het archief is een bevroren moment uit een vorige versie van dit forum, met andere regels en andere bazen. Deze posts weerspiegelen op geen enkele manier onze huidige ideeën, waarden of wereldbeelden en zijn op sommige plaatsen gecensureerd wegens ontoelaatbaar. Veel zijn in een andere tijdsgeest gemaakt, al dan niet ironisch - zoals in het ironische subforum Off-Topic - en zouden op dit moment niet meer gepost (mogen) worden. Toch bieden we dit archief nog graag aan als informatiedatabank en naslagwerk. Lees er hier meer over of start een gesprek met anderen.

eniac

Legacy Member
Alweer zo'n voorbeeld van ronduit foute stellingen waaruit dan conclusies getrokken worden.

Ahneen, ik mag niet "conclusies" zeggen, ik zou beter "opmerkingen" zeggen, toch Bacon? Want het zijn allemaal geen besluiten, maar wel opmerkingen van toevallige feiten waaruit niemand iets concludeert maar het toch gewoon even wil aanhalen, toch?

Peephole

Legacy Member
Bacon zei:
Je weet toch dat die "experts" enkel de instorting van de eerste vloer hebben uitgelegd? En dat alles wat er na komt zogezegd een "natuurlijk" gevolg is?
Welke experts? En over welke studie heb je het?

Ik kan me alleszins goed voorstellen dat er voornamelijk geconcentreerd is op de instorting van één vloer. Ik denk niet dat er meer dan één vloer moet falen om een wolkenkrabber tot een hoopje puin te herleiden.
Bacon zei:
En nee ik slik niet zomaar wat die experts zeggen omdat het niet 'strookt met mijn overtuiging' en een aantal wetten uit de fysica.
Welke wetten? En hoe kom je daar bij? Ben je nu nog altijd niet van het waanidee verlost dat je ook maar íets van instortende wolkenkrabbers weet?

Peephole

Legacy Member
Elfanor- zei:
Heeft iemand een deftige site waar betrouwbare informatie staat over de zaken die niet erg koosjes zijn van 9/11. Ik wil de harde feiten en geen vergezochte theorietjes. Ik zal zelf mijn conclusie's wel trekken.
Check alleszins http://www.911myths.com/ eens. Die mens heeft een aantal van de meer uitzinnigere claims over 9/11 onderzocht.

Bacon

Legacy Member
dJeez zei:
Betrouwbaar?

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/identities.html

De "herrezen" kapers zijn enkel personen die toevallig dezelfde naam hebben, en misschien ook nog per toeval uit hetzelfde land afkomstig zijn als de echte kapers.


Of the 19 alleged hijackers identified by the FBI, at least six turned up alive after the attack. The FBI's identifications included names, photographs, and, in several cases, other personal details -- all of which matched the six persons who surfaced after the attack to proclaim their innocence.


dJeez zei:
Of heb je de reportage op Ter Zake van vorige week gemist waar oa. deze stelling van de compoltfantasten werden ontkracht?

In die reportage haalde ze 1 persoon aan die er anders uitzag dan de foto die ze als bewijsmateriaal hadden gebruikt.


dJeez zei:
Het spijtige van de zaak is dat ook de BBC die informatie overnam ZONDER bronnen te checken, maar ik dacht dat ze dat achteraf wel hadden rechtgezet.

References

1. Who Did It?, ABCnews.com, [cached]
2. The hijack suspects, BBC, 9/28/01 [cached]
3. Revealed: the men with stolen identities, telegraph.co.uk, 9/23/01 [cached]
4. Revealed: the men with stolen ..., 9/23/01
5. Revealed: the men with stolen ..., 9/23/01
6. Hijack 'suspects' alive and well, BBC, 9/23/01 [cached]
7. Dead Saudi Hijack Suspect Resurfaces, Denies Involvement, AllAfrica.com, 9/24/01 [cached]
8. 'Suicide hijacker' is an airline pilot alive and well in Jeddah, Independent.co.uk, 9/17/01 [cached]
9. Arrests made at New York airports, CNN.com, 9/13/01 [cached]
10. Les Américains se trompent sur 5 des 19 terroristes, AllAfrica.com, 9/21/01 [cached]

Ik durf mij er trouwens niet over uitspreken.. zoals ik al meermaals heb gezegd is de kans groot dat die kapers echt de vliegtuigen gekaapt hebben. Hetgeen je hier aanhaalt staat onder de site ook onder misinformation..

Peephole

Legacy Member
Bacon zei:
In die reportage haalde ze 1 persoon aan die er anders uitzag dan de foto die ze als bewijsmateriaal hadden gebruikt.
Toch opvallend dat allemaal die bronnen uit september 2001 stammen, niet? En hoe komt het toch dat na het vrijgeven van alle foto's er geen woord meer is gerept over de zogezegde levende kapers?

Mochten de kapers écht nog leven, dan waren ze toch indertussen al lang eens geïnterviewd?

Natuurlijk maar ze zijn allemaal morsdood. Zelfs Saudi-Arabië heeft toegegeven:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm

Bacon

Legacy Member
Peephole zei:
En ook deze site bericht over het fabeltje van de levende kapers.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a091601stillalive

Lees misschien eens voor ge denkt dat ze daarom ook het verhaal verdedigen..

On September 20, FBI Director Mueller says, “We have several others that are still in question. The investigation is ongoing, and I am not certain as to several of the others.” [Newsday, 9/21/2001] On September 27, after all of these revelations mentioned above are revealed in the media, FBI Director Mueller states, “We are fairly certain of a number of them.” [South Florida Sun-Sentinel, 9/28/2001] On September 20, the London Times reported, “Five of the hijackers were using stolen identities, and investigators are studying the possibility that the entire suicide squad consisted of impostors.” [London Times, 9/20/2001]

The mainstream media briefly doubted some of the hijackers’ identities. For instance, a story in the Observer on September 23 put the names of hijackers like Saeed Alghamdi in quotation marks. [Observer, 9/23/2001] However, the story will die down after the initial reports, and it is hardly noticed when Mueller states on November 2, 2001, “We at this point definitely know the 19 hijackers who were responsible,” and claims that the FBI is sticking with the names and photos released in late September. [Associated Press, 11/3/2002]

Het geeft gewoon alles weer wat er in de media is geweest zodat mensen hun eigen oordeel kunnen vellen.

Bacon

Legacy Member
Peephole zei:
Mochten de kapers écht nog leven, dan waren ze toch indertussen al lang eens geïnterviewd,?

Want we weten intussen allemaal hoe open het onderzoek naar 9/11 gebeurt in de media...

Peephole

Legacy Member
Bacon zei:
Het geeft gewoon alles weer wat er in de media is geweest zodat mensen hun eigen oordeel kunnen vellen.
Zonder een beetje duiding en wat selecteren kan je mensen even goed iets wijsmaken.
Bacon zei:
Zelfs Saudi-Arabië? You've got to be shitting me.

http://www.houseofbush.com/
Het is niet omdat er banden zijn tussen de families Saud en Bush, dat de laatsten de eersten zomaar kan dicteren wat ze moeten doen. Mocht dat wél zo zijn, dan zou Saudi-Arabië nooit ontkend hebben dat hun burgers betrokken waren.
Glor zei:
Een freelancer kan ook interviewen Bacon :)
What he said.

eniac

Legacy Member
Misschien kan Bacon er zelf naartoe om één van die mannen te interviewen. Zo kan hij zelf de held worden in het hele conspiracy-verhaal, en daarbovenop eens voor iets zorgen dat min of meer kan doorgaan als bewijsmateriaal.

Bacon

Legacy Member
Peephole zei:
Een video van Alex "The Beast Is Upon Us" Jones geloofwaardig?

http://nwobeastomfg.ytmnd.com/

Sjeus.

Geestig, of nee wacht, kinderachtig was het woord waar ik naar zocht..

Heb je ooit al wel eens iet bekeken van Alex Jones? Ik ben zelf ook niet echt een fan, maar alles wat hij zegt is meestal goed onderbouwd door mainstream media bronnen aan te halen. En terrorstorm is zeker geen slechte docu.

Hier nog eentje die zeker aan te raden is, maar die op zich niets met 9/11 te maken heeft. Wel met de oorzaak van veel van de problemen in de VS.

America: Freedom to fascism (Aaron Russo - http://www.freedomtofascism.com/)
http://www.conspiracyresearch.org/forums/Aaron-Russo-America-Freedom-To-Fascism-t2939.html

En pas op want de woorden "new world order" komen er in voor!

Bacon

Legacy Member
Uit "NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf" pagina 47
E.5 Fire exposure and temperatures reached by the steel

The pre-collapse photographic analysis showed that 16 recovered exterior panels were exposed to fire prior to collapse of WTC 1. None of the nine recovered panels from within the fire floors of WTC 2 were observed to have been directly exposed.

A method was developed using microscopig observations of paint cracking to determine whether steel members had experienced temperatures in excess of 250 °C. More than 170 areas were examined on 21 exterior panels. Note that these 21 panels represent only about 3 percent of the panels from involved floors, and that results on these panels cannot be considered indicative of exposure of other panels. Only three locations had a positive result indicating that the steel and paint may have reached temperatures in excess of 250 °C (note that exposure could have occurred pre- or post-collapse).

Annealing studies on recovered steels (from NIST NCSTAR 1-3E) established the set of time and temperature conditions necessary to alter the steel microstructrure. The microstructure of steels known to have been exposed to fire, based on the pre-collapse photographic evidence, were characterized. These microstructures show now evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 °C for any significant time.

uit "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.(1) This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.

1. A.E. Cote, ed., Fire Protection Handbook 17th Edition (Quincy, MA: National Fire Protection Association, 1992), pp. 6-62 to 6-70.


Uit "National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster"
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
Answers to Frequently Asked Questions

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers (see explanation below from NISTNCSTART1-3Cchaps.pdf page 118). Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

Nist temperature analysis:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4608/nistthermalanalysiswtc1mj6.jpg
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8767/nistthermalanalysiswtc2bg4.jpg


Uit "NISTNCSTAR1-3Cchaps.pdf" pagina 118
http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/6951/nosaggingseznistrz8.jpg
Figure 2-46. Image of the NE corner of WTC 2, several seconds before the collapse. The corner shows no distortion of the type in the previous picture. This would imply that the distortion accompanied the collapse and did not precede it.

Volgens mij weten ze zelf niet meer wat ze zeggen...

Last but not least

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

Peephole

Legacy Member
Bacon zei:
Let op de "100 seconds". Die afbeelding geeft dus de toestand 100 seconden na de impact weer en toen waren de kolommen dus al verhit tot 300-400 graden Celcius. Over het verdere verloop van de branden zegt die afbeelding niks, stop met de mensen te bedriegen.

Misschien ook eens volledig citeren?
It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
Stuk dat Bacon heeft weggelaten:
The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
Stuk dat Bacon heeft weggelaten:
The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive.
The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
Vraag 2, 4, 5 en 11:

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
diagram of composit wtc floor system

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

*the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

*the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?


No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

5. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?


The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC Towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building’s collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
Het archief is een bevroren moment uit een vorige versie van dit forum, met andere regels en andere bazen. Deze posts weerspiegelen op geen enkele manier onze huidige ideeën, waarden of wereldbeelden en zijn op sommige plaatsen gecensureerd wegens ontoelaatbaar. Veel zijn in een andere tijdsgeest gemaakt, al dan niet ironisch - zoals in het ironische subforum Off-Topic - en zouden op dit moment niet meer gepost (mogen) worden. Toch bieden we dit archief nog graag aan als informatiedatabank en naslagwerk. Lees er hier meer over of start een gesprek met anderen.
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