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nasredinho zei:

heb hier een mooi documentaire over de profeet Mohamed

dat is voor degene die eigenlijk Islam helemaal verkeerd verstaan, had die graag naar Dewinter gestuurd maarja wie weet kom hij hier eens langs op 9lives

YouTube - Biography: Muhammad The Prophet - History Channel (1 of 6)

het is wel in engels

veel plezier ermee, denk dat er discussies hieruit kunnen ontstaan die interessant kunnen zijn

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Legatus zei:

Mohammed was een massamoordenaar en wss ook een pedofiel.
Meer valt er niet te zeggen over de mythe van deze "vredevolle" Mohammed.

De genocide van Banu Quraiza is er ééntje van.
En de Sahih Bukhari spreekt over zijn toffe momenten met Aisha.

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nasredinho zei:

heb hier een mooi documentaire over de profeet Mohamed

dat is voor degene die eigenlijk Islam helemaal verkeerd verstaan, had die graag naar Dewinter gestuurd maarja wie weet kom hij hier eens langs op 9lives

YouTube - Biography: Muhammad The Prophet - History Channel (1 of 6)

het is wel in engels

veel plezier ermee, denk dat er discussies hieruit kunnen ontstaan die interessant kunnen zijn

Klik om te vergroten...

Commissar12911 zei:

Bovendien ... hoe kan die 'documentaire' correct zijn als het engelsverschijningen en het praten met God als waargebeurde feiten aanhaalt?

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nasredinho zei:

lol wat lul jij nu?

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Commissar12911 zei:

Bovendien ... hoe kan die 'documentaire' correct zijn als het engelsverschijningen en het praten met God als waargebeurde feiten aanhaalt?

Klik om te vergroten...

Legatus zei:

Lees uw hadith en koran is.

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nasredinho zei:

geloof me die ken ik

lol uw hehe

die is niet van mij alleen hoor

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Legatus zei:

Dan zijt gij een oneerlijk persoon of hebt gij een andere visie op wat goed en slecht is?
Of gaat ge mij echt dwingen om vers refs te geven?

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Legatus zei:

Mohammed was een massamoordenaar en wss ook een pedofiel.
Meer valt er niet te zeggen over de mythe van deze "vredevolle" Mohammed.

De genocide van Banu Quraiza is er ééntje van.
En de Sahih Bukhari spreekt over zijn toffe momenten met Aisha.

Klik om te vergroten...

Avondland zei:

't Is niet omdat in vele moslimlanden de huwelijksleeftijd 9 jaar is voor meisjes dat er dan sprake is van pedofilie. Vaak zijn de socio-economische omstandigheden zo als een arme niet op tijd kan trouwen dat hij een vrij uitzichtsloos leven tegemoet gaat. Met pedofilie heeft dat weinig te maken, al kan ik me niet van de indruk ontdoen dat sommige mannen het huwelijk willen consommeren op die leeftijd. Maar ik betwijfel dat het er veel zijn. Trouwens, vroeger waren die grenzen van sexuele rijpheid niet gelegd op 16 of 18 jaar. Ook in onze streken was trouwen op een vroeg-puberale leeftijd niet ongewoon.

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nasredinho zei:

zijn uitspraken van pedofiel en dergelijke over Mohamed vind ik onrespectvol en kwetsend tegen over mij als Moslim, maarja, wat doe je eraan

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Commissar12911 zei:

Stoppen met je geloof zo serieus te nemen?

Waarom geloof je trouwens in de Islam, en niet in het Christendom bijvoorbeeld?

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Commissar12911 zei:

Stoppen met je geloof zo serieus te nemen?

Waarom geloof je trouwens in de Islam, en niet in het Christendom bijvoorbeeld?

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nasredinho zei:

omdat ik in de Islam het meest logica zie
Islam en Christendom zijn zeer dicht bij elkaar, verschil is dat Christendom zegt dat Jezus zoon van God is

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1. Nog voor dat de islam bestond was men in die streken zeer "tolerant" tegen alles wat 'anders' was.

Even before Islam,Jews had lived in various places like Mecca, Medina and regions like modern day Israel. When Islam arrived, Muslims drove them out of their ancestral lands.
The Bible tells us that the northern kingdom, Israel, was at all times polytheistic. The biblical references to the kings of Israel show every one of them as polytheistic in their beliefs. Biblical references that tell us about popular religion in Israel - what the people themselves believed.
"Palestine" 'belonged' to polytheistic (or Pagan) people first.
Pagans were commanded to convert to Islam. If they refused they were killed and enslaved and their property seized. Christians and Jews [4], however, were regarded as "peoples of the Book" and treated differently. If they surrendered without resistance, their lives and property were spared conditional on acknowledgment of their inferiority to Muslims and the superiority of Muslims and further on payment of the humiliation tax called "jizya".
Theoretically the dhimmi were to be allowed free practice of their religion, but in reality that notion evolved into mere sufferance under whatever other limitations the local rulers might impose. For the first centuries after Muslim conquest the Christian populations were the majorities under their Muslim masters. Over time these majorities dwindled to minorities through forced conversions and expulsions.

2. Met de opkomst van de Islam is de tolerantie echter afgenomen en eerder veranderd in een soort van 'gedoogbeleid' omdat ze wisten dat hun belangrijkste steden op zeer belangrijke handelsroutes lagen.

The Palmyrenes (ethnically semitic Amorites and Arabs) adopted many elements of both Greco-Roman and Parthian-Persian culture.
The breakaway empire was teeming with large cities, rich with industry – textiles, glass, metal, and leather-working. Palmyra itself profited from east-west trade.
Mecca. The city's location on several trade routes has made it commercially important since ancient times.
the claim by Muslims that Mecca was not only an ancient and great city, but it was also the centre of the trading routes for Arabia in the seventh century and before (Cook 1983:74; Crone 1987:3-6). It is this belief which is the easiest to examine, since we have ample documentation from that part of the world with which to check out its veracity.




3. Vele personen probeerden dan ook onze Mohammed van kant te maken, omdat hij in hun ogen een risico was voor hun geldopbrengsten, maar ook voor het 'gezonde verstand'.

Muhammad started public preaching.[63] As the number of followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[61] The powerful merchants tried to convince Muhammad to abandon his preaching by offering him admission into the inner circle of merchants, and establishing his position therein by an advantageous marriage.
The account holds that Muhammad pronounced a verse acknowledging the existence of three Meccan goddesses considered to be the daughters of Allah, praising them, and appealing for their intercession. According to these accounts, Muhammad later retracted the verses at the behest of Gabriel.[68] Islamic scholars vigorously objected to the historicity of the incident.

4. Tot zijn grote teleurstelling toch, toen hij bij de Joden voor hulp ging smeken, moesten ze er niks van weten.

After his migration (hijra) to Medina from his home-town of Mecca, he established an agreement known as the Constitution of Medina between the major Medinan factions, including the Jewish tribes of Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qurayza that secured equal rights for both Jews and Muslims as long as Jews remained politically supportive.[1] Muhammad later fought battles with these tribes on the basis of perceived violations of the constitution.

The Qur'an states that the Jews were specially chosen by God, who raised many prophets among them, blessed them and granted them favours, and held them over all other nations. [2]
Muhammad married two Jewish women, Safiyya bint Huyayy, a captive from the Banu Nadir, and Rayhana bint Zayd, though the latter is disputed. Rayhana is said to have poisoned him

When he realized that the Jews wouldn't believe in him, and that their unbelief would turn against him, because they have the Torah which has the criteria for any prophet, he realized that they should be eliminated. So at first he switched the Qibla (the direction the Muslims face in prayer) from Jerusalem to Mecca [Quran Surah 2:144 and Saheeh Bukhari - 41].

Of met andere woorden… De Koran even aangepast omdat hij ruzie had met wat Joden.

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1. Alliantie met de Joden

Judaism was already well established in Medina two centuries before Muhammad's birth. Although influential, the Jews did not rule the oasis. Rather, they were clients of two large Arab tribes there, the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, who protected them in return for feudal loyalty. Medina's Jews were expert jewelers, and weapons and armor makers. There were many Jewish clans-some records indicate more than twenty, of which three were prominent-the Banu Nadir, the Banu Qaynuqa, and the Banu Qurayza.

Muhammad arrived in Medina in 622 believing the Jewish tribes would welcome him. Contrary to expectation, his relations with several of the Jewish tribes in Medina were uneasy almost from the start. This was probably largely a matter of local politics. Medina was not so much a city as a fractious agricultural settlement dotted by fortresses and strongholds, and all relations in the oasis were uneasy. In fact, Muhammad had been invited there to arbitrate a bloody civil war between the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, in which the Jewish clans, being their clients, were embroiled.

At Muhammad's insistence, Medina's pagan, Muslim and Jewish clans signed a pact to protect each other, but achieving this new social order was difficult.

According to most sources, individuals from among these clans plotted to take his life at least twice, and once they came within a bite of poisoning him. Two of the tribes--the Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa--were eventually exiled for falling short on their agreed upon commitments and for the consequent danger they posed to the nascent Muslim community.

The Banu Qurayza were hesitant to join the Meccan alliance, but when a substantial Meccan army arrived, they agreed.

In the third week of the siege, the Banu Qurayza signaled their readiness to act against Muhammad, although they demanded that the Meccans provide them with hostages first, to ensure that they wouldn't be abandoned to face Muhammad alone. Yet that is exactly what happened. The Meccans, nearing exhaustion themselves, refused to give the Banu Qurayza any hostages. Not long after, cold, heavy rains set in, and the Meccans gave up the fight and marched home, to the horror and dismay of the Banu Qurayza.

The Muslims now commenced a 25-day siege against the Banu Qurazya's fortress. Finally, both sides agreed to arbitration. A former ally of the Banu Qurayza, an Arab chief named Sa'd ibn Muadh, now a Muslim, was chosen as judge. Sa'd, one of the few casualties of battle, would soon die of his wounds. If the earlier tribal relations had been in force, he would have certainly spared the Banu Qurayza. His fellow chiefs urged him to pardon these former allies, but he refused. In his view, the Banu Qurayza had attacked the new social order and failed to honor their agreement to protect the town. He ruled that all the men should be killed. Muhammad accepted his judgment, and the next day, according to Muslim sources, 700 men of the Banu Qurayza were executed.

At the same time, the Muslims faced the threat of total extermination, and needed to send a message to all those groups in Medina that might try to betray their society in the future.

(Bron: Muhammad: Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet . Muhammad and Jews of Medina | PBS)

2. Veranderen van bidrichting van Jeruzalem naar Mekka.

For the Muslims al-Aqsa is mentioned in the Quran as the destinationof the Prophet Muhammad’s nocturnal journey and being interpreted and identifiedwith the place of the rock (or foundation stone) in Jerusalem. According to traditionMuhammad ascended to heaven from this place, and the first direction of prayer before Mecca.

(Bron: http://www.jiis.org.il/imageBank/File/publications/reiter-eng.pdf)

According to the Qur'an, the direction of prayer (the Qibla), was canonized (or finalized) towards Mecca for all Muslims in or around 624 AD (see Sura 2:144, 149-150).

Yet, the earliest evidence from outside Muslim tradition regarding the direction in which Muslims prayed, and by implication the location of their sanctuary, points to an area much further north than Mecca, in fact somewhere in north-west Arabia (Crone-Cook 1977:23). Consider the archaeological evidence which has been and is continuing to be uncovered from the first mosques built in the seventh century: If you take a map you will find where it is that these mosques were pointing. All four of the above instances position the Qibla not towards Mecca, but much further north, in fact closer possibly to the vicinity of Jerusalem.

(Bron: The Qibla)

Heb nog een berg meer bronnen, die ik in een andere thread al gegeven had. En dus zal copy-pasten na deze reply te hebben gemaakt.

3. De drie wondermooie polytheïstische dochters van Allah

It is an undeniable fact of history that before Muhammed was born, the moon god "al-Ilah" (Allah) had three daughters named al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat. The first two were even named after their father. Each daughter had a separate shrine near Mecca, where Allah's shrine was located.
As Muhammad grew weary from evangelizing his new religion with little success, he was tricked by the devil into adding a verse in the Koran that commanded Muslims to pray to Allah's three pagan daughters Lat, Uzza and Manat. The pagan female trinity was immediately accepted without dissent and the passage was considered part of the revealed Koran. However some time later, Muhammad got a revelation that the verse should be removed.

The historical information confirming the "Satanic verses" is so vast and sure, only the desperate blind would deny the evidence. Undeniably factual information regarding the Satanic verses comes from respected Muslim scholars like at-Tabari and Ibn Sa’d who wrote biographical and historical accounts of the life of Muhammad.

(Bron: Islamic roots of polytheism: Allah’s Daughters: Lat, Uzza, and Manat. "Daughter-gate")

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4. Deals met de polytheïsten:

Muhammad started public preaching.[63] As the number of followers swelled, he became a threat to the local tribes and the rulers of the city, whose wealth rested upon the Kaaba, the focal point of Meccan religious life, which Muhammad threatened to overthrow. Muhammad’s denunciation of the Meccan traditional religion was especially offensive to his own tribe, the Quraysh, as they were the guardians of the Ka'aba.[61] The powerful merchants tried to convince Muhammad to abandon his preaching by offering him admission into the inner circle of merchants, and establishing his position therein by an advantageous marriage.

The account holds that Muhammad pronounced a verse acknowledging the existence of three Meccan goddesses considered to be the daughters of Allah, praising them, and appealing for their intercession. According to these accounts, Muhammad later retracted the verses at the behest of Gabriel.

5. Nog wat over deals met de Joden:

toen hij bij de Joden voor hulp ging smeken, moesten ze er niks van weten. Waardoor hij de richting van bidden van Jeruzalem naar Mecca heeft veranderd.

After his migration (hijra) to Medina from his home-town of Mecca, he established an agreement known as the Constitution of Medina between the major Medinan factions, including the Jewish tribes of Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qurayza that secured equal rights for both Jews and Muslims as long as Jews remained politically supportive.[1] Muhammad later fought battles with these tribes on the basis of perceived violations of the constitution.

The Qur'an states that the Jews were specially chosen by God, who raised many prophets among them, blessed them and granted them favours, and held them over all other nations. [2]
Muhammad married two Jewish women, Safiyya bint Huyayy, a captive from the Banu Nadir, and Rayhana bint Zayd, though the latter is disputed. Rayhana is said to have poisoned him

When he realized that the Jews wouldn't believe in him, and that their unbelief would turn against him, because they have the Torah which has the criteria for any prophet, he realized that they should be eliminated. So at first he switched the Qibla (the direction the Muslims face in prayer) from Jerusalem to Mecca [Quran Surah 2:144 and Saheeh Bukhari - 41].

-

Vermeldenswaard is, dat voordat de Ka’aba tot de qiblah van de moslims werd gemaakt, de tempel te Jeruzalem (al-Aqsa moskee) de qiblah van de moslims was. De Heilige Profeet Mohammed (vrede zij met hem) had voor deze qiblah gekozen, omdat deze de qiblah was van de laatste Profeet die vóór hem was verschenen, namelijk de Profeet Jezus. En aangezien de Islam de waarheid in alle eerdere openbaringen erkent[1], koos de Profeet Mohammed ervoor de tempel te Jeruzalem tot zijn qiblah te maken, totdat aan hem werd geopenbaard zich naar de Ka’aba in Mekka te richten[2].

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Ik kan natuurlijk begrijpen dat voor gelovigen al die sprookjes over "god" heeft hem verteld dat te doen, als waarheid beschouwd worden. Doch echter voor geschiedkundigen zijn dergelijke sprookjes, larie en apekool; en zijn er genoeg andere bronnen beschikbaar om de werkelijke redenen te kennen. (Namelijk dat in 90% van de gevallen heethoofdige Mohammed kwaad werd op een bevolkingsgroep en dan maar snel wat haatdragende passages ging toevoegen aan zijn heilige sprookjesboek.)

Vanuit puur geschiedkundig standpunt was Mohammed dan ook niets anders dan een bloeddorstige dictator die het allemaal deed voor het geld, vrouwen en macht. Bij hem ligt het er dan ook vingerdik op. Dat een paar miljoen mensen zo gek zijn om een dergelijke figuur en zijn zelf-winstbejag teksten te aanbidden, dat is waarschijnlijk het spijtigste van gans de zaak; en een teken dat qua geestelijke maturiteit de mensheid nog een lange weg voor de boeg heeft.

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Het staat in de Koran zelf, dat Mohammed zijn verzen had aangepast. Omdat dit ondertussen voor velen een onontkenbaar feit is geworden, alhoewel de meeste extremistische moslims nog steeds weigeren dit te aanvaarden. Maar in de Koran wordt het verklaard als een verleiding van Satan die Mohammed overtuigd had dat die drie polytheïstische godinnen moesten aanbeden worden.

Zoals ik eerder al heb gequote, is Mohammed hier later omwille van politieke redenen op terug gekomen.

Citaat:
Al-'Uzza, al-Lat and Manah, the three daughters of Allah, had their sanctuaries in the land which later became the cradle of Islam. In a weak moment the monotheistic Muhammad was tempted to recognize these powerful deities of Makkah and al-Madinah and make a compromise in their favour, but afterwards he retracted and the revelation is said to have received the form now found in surah 53:19-20.

Later theologians explained the case according to the principle of nasikh and mansukh, abrogating and abrogated verses, by means of which God revokes and alters the announcements of His will; this results in the cancellation of a verse and the substitution of another for it (Koran 2 :100)

"Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; That He may make that which the devil proposeth a temptation for those in whose hearts is a disease, and those whose hearts are hardened - Lo! the evil-doers are in open schism" (Koran 22:52-53)

Allat, according to recent study of the complicated inspirational evidence, is believed to have been introduced into Arabia from Syria, and to have been the moon goddess of North Arabia. If this is the correct interpretation of her character, she corresponded to the moon deity of South Arabia, Almaqah, `Vadd, `Amm or Sin as he was called, the difference being only the oppositeness of gender. Mount Sinai (the name being an Arabic feminine form of Sin) would then have been one of the centers of the worship of this northern moon goddess. Similarly, al-`Uzza is supposed to have come from Sinai, and to have been the goddess of the planet Venus. As the moon and the evening star are associated in the heavens, so too were Allat and al-`Uzza together in religious belief, and so too are the crescent and star conjoined on the flags of Arab countries today.

"It is certain that they regarded particular deities (mentioned in 1iii. 19-20 are al-‘Uzza, Manat or Manah, al-Lat; some have interpreted vii, 179 as a reference to a perversion of Allah to Allat) as daughters of Allah (vi. 100; xvi, 59; xxxvii, 149; 1iii, 21); they also asserted that he had sons (vi. 100) (First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, p. 302)

AI-Lat, AI-‘Uzza, and Manat. Among the Qur’an's references to its 7 th-century pagan milieu are three goddesses, called daughters of Allah: AI-Lat, AI-‘Uzza, and Manat; these are also known from earlier inscriptions in northern Arabia. Al-Lat ("the Goddess") may have had a role subordinate to that of El (Ilah), as "daughter" rather than consort (Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1057, 1979)
Gans onze encyclopedieën staan vol met deze informatie. Dus tenzij dit het werk was van de duivel, om overal die verschillende bronnen over dit onderwerp te maken ... is dit niet anders dan het onontkenbare bewijs dat Mohammed inderdaad destijds het 'Woord van God' heeft aangepast.
De symbolen die men gebruikten voor die godinnen zijn ironisch genoeg vandaag de dag zelfs het symbool van de Islam geworden. (Maan met ster).

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En net hetzelfde met verzen die over de aanvaarding van het Jodendom gingen en de heilige stad Jeruzalem. (En waarbij nadien Mekka de heilige stad werd, omwille van politieke ruzie met de Joden).

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Over het veranderen van de bidrichting na ruzie met Joden:
- Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet . Muhammad and Jews of Medina | PBS (Islamitische website)
- Quran Surah 2:144 and Saheeh Bukhari - 41
- Sura 2:144, 149-150
Wetenschappelijke Magazines en werken van geschiedkundige auteurs waaronder sommige moslims:
- Crone-Cook 1977:23
- Creswell 1989:41
- Fehervari 1961:89
- al-Baladhuri's Futuh, edited by de Goeje 1866:276
- Sebeos 1904:94-96
- Glasse 1991:102
- Bercham 1927:217
- Van Berchem 1927; Nevo 1994:113
- Sura 2:144-150

Over de aanvaarding van 3 polytheïstische godinnen in de Islam als deal met polytheïsten:
- Koran: (an-Najm 53:19-22)
- Koran 17:73-75, Koran 22:52-53
- History Of The Arabs, Philip K. Hitti, 1937, p 96-101
- The Archeology Of World Religions, Jack Finegan, 1952, p482-485, 492
- Tabari, Annals 1.1192-1193 = Tabari vi: 108-109
- The Hajj, F. E. Peters, p 3-41, 1994
- Mohammed: The man and his faith, Tor Andrae, 1936, Translated by Theophil Menzel, 1960, p13-30
- Fabled Cities, Princes & Jin from Arab Myths and Legends, Khairt al-Saeh, 1985, p. 28-30.
- The Cambridge History of Islam, Vol. I, ed. P.M. Holt, 1970, p 37
- Companion to the Qur’an, W. Montgomery Watt, p 244
- Encyclopedia of Gods, Michael Jordan, Allat, p 12
- Muhammad: A Western Attempt to Understand Islam, Karen Armstrong, Chapter 6: the Satanic verses, p 108-133, 1991
- Islam, Alfred Guilaume, 1956 p 6-7
- Meet the Arab, John Van Ess, 1943, p. 29
- First Encyclopedia of Islam, E.J. Brill, 1987, p. 302
- The Islamic Invasion, Robert Morey, 1977, p 51
- Muhammad, Maxime Rodinson, p 16-17
- Koran: Faris 17
- Encyclopedia Britannica, Vol. 2:176
- Multiculturalism, Islam - A Dynamic Stability, by Camel Xerri Abdullah Idris, Islamic Center Toronto Jami Mosque, p282-293
- Islam, Beliefs And Observances, Caesar E. Farah, p2-7, 26-35
- The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996, p394-397
- Ibn Khaldun, The Muqadimmah: Ail Introduction to History, Islamic historian, 1377 AD
- enzovoort

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